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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:34 pm 
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well, in secondary clauses the verb always goes to the end, but if you have more than one verb *one* of em is going to have to be last, they can't all be at the end. ;) I dunno, I am not a good teacher, I'm really not good at explaining things, so here are some more examples. (I was trying to explain to someone today why it is wrong to say "it has been remaining" instead of "it has remained" .... :shock:)

if there is one verb, in the main clause it is going to be the second thing in the phrase (except questions without question words where the verb comes first just like in English):
Ich möchte einen Kaffee bitte.
Kaffee sagte ich, warum bringst du mir Tee?
Glücklicherweise mag ich auch Tee...

but in a secondary clause, the lonely single verb gets shoved to the back of the phrase.
Ich weiß, dass er Kaffee möchte.
Mein Freund hat mir Tee gebracht, trotz dass ich Kaffee sagte!
Der Mann ist zufrieden, weil er Tee auch mag.

Add in a second verb and the conjugated verb takes the place that our lonely single verb would have taken, and the new verb gets shoved to the back of the sentence in a main clause, but gets to go right before the conjugated verb in a secondary clause. Strictly speaking, the only verbs that can be added on are the helper/modal verbs, so the second verb is always going to be one of them.

main clause:
Ich möchte Kaffee trinken.

secondary clause:
Ich weiß, dass du Kaffee trinken möchtest.

Add in the third verb (it's going to be ANOTHER modal/helper verb) and the word order does what I listed before --
main clause: conjugated verb in the normal verb spot and the other modal at the end, and the "regular" verb (what is actually being done!!) goes right before the helper verb's infinitive
secondary clause: all the verbs in a row at the end, in order of conjugated helper, regular verb, helper verb

and of course none of this is talking about past participles. those generally go where the "regular" verb would go, and indeed they are generally the regular verb. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:05 am 
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Nadja, you are a great teacher :hug: You always make very good sense. Some of us, errr, namely me, have alot of :blonde: moments :wink:
Talk about difficult, try explaining the difference between 'say' and 'tell' :shock:

What's screwy is I understand what's being said, with this whole secondary clause word order thing. I just don't write it that way because I'm still using pretty simple sentences :oops:
I think I got it now. :hug: I'll have to come back later with some more questions/comments and stuff cause James is dragging me out the door to go vote now :P

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:54 am 
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Ok, double post ;)

So in that secondary clause, the helper verb gets kicked to the end of the clause. It's a helper, it doesn't have the same rank as the other verbs :P
But if it's in the past, then haben takes the 2nd spot and the other verbs still go to the end with the helper verb bringing up the rear.
I'm repeating everything, aren't I? It's for confirmation :oops:

I was able to find a more complex sentence for an example, hehe. Cause Paul was getting tired of being told he needs to eat bread :lol:

Wie oft habe ich dir schon gesagt, dass du mich während der Arbeit nicht anrufen sollst!

I can see how the word order works now ^_^ Though I can't promise I'll remember to use it all the time :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:03 pm 
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sounds like you've got it. :) word order is complicated and takes some getting used to, but most of the time it doesn't actually change the meaning of the sentence, it just kinda marks us as foreigners, so it is not something to really worry about a whole lot. more something to be aware of and work on, but certainly not lose any sleep over. ;)

I dunno where this would show up in the grammar book. maybe under the word order part but then again, it is sort of the bastard child of sentence structure, so they might have skipped it.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:17 pm 
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Well I'm sure I'll always sound like an American hacking up the German langauge into tiny little pieces :lol: But at least now when I read it, things might go a little more smoothly. Translating lyrics doesn't give full coverage of word order ;)

I almost really confused myself because I was seeing these other sentences without that structure. I was in the process of writing my WTF question, when I realized that the main clause was joined by a conjunction and that of course caused the 2nd clause to become something totally different than what were were talking about :P
Here lately I've been skipping the grammar lessons in my book and just trying to work on the speaking part. Cause at some point, someone is going to expect me to speak in German :shock: And thusly that's just not an experience I look forward to :lol:

I appreciate your help :hug: and now I can finally write up those verb quizzes for the forum. I refused to write a quiz if I can't figure out what the questions are ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:47 pm 
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While reading Treue Johann from Grimms Märchen, I found out what one of the words in Seemann means. Segel = seagull

Another construction which requires placing the verb at the beginning besides asking non ja/nein questions is a "participle phrase". I have no idea what the technical term for that is in German, but it's like when you say, "when you reach the intersection, turn right.", then the part that says "when you reach the intersection" is the phrase I'm referring to.

So I guess you say Erreichen Kreuzung Sie, gehen Sie recht. Somebody find me a better sentence.

A Schuh is a shoe. A Handschuh is a glove. And a Panzerhandscuh is a gauntlet.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm 
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hi, I hope you don't mind if I make a few corrections and comments.... (bitte nimm es mir nicht übel!)

Todesengel wrote:
While reading Treue Johann from Grimms Märchen, I found out what one of the words in Seemann means. Segel = seagull


hmm, now I am gonna have to look at Der treue Johann and see what you're talking about there. (hopefully I can find it online, otherwise I'm gonna have to dig and find my print copy....) But unless it is some old homonym, unfortunately, that is what might be called a "false friend", a word that sounds similar but actually means something different. Ein Segel is a sail (like on a boat) and a seagull is eine Möwe.

I find it really interesting sometimes how far apart German and English are, while still being so very close in other ways...

(The interconnections between languages in general fascinate me... like learning a word in Hindi and realising it is the exact same word in Russian, just with different declination of course, but then other stuff has no connection to anything I've heard in my life... It's a crazy world out there. Some days I wonder how anyone communicates at all, others I feel certain there is a pattern, and if I could just catch a glimpse of it, I'd understand every word I hear. ;))

Todesengel wrote:
Another construction which requires placing the verb at the beginning besides asking non ja/nein questions is a "participle phrase". I have no idea what the technical term for that is in German, but it's like when you say, "when you reach the intersection, turn right.", then the part that says "when you reach the intersection" is the phrase I'm referring to.

So I guess you say Erreichen Sie die Kreuzung, gehen Sie rechts. Somebody find me a better sentence.


The sentence is a reasonable example of a construction with the verb first, but in that form it is actually a couple of commands -- imperative constructions put the verbs first in German, too. (this would be, "Reach the intersection, go right.") Participial phrases are when you turn a verb and some words around it into an adjective. "Erreichend die Kreuzung, gehen Sie rechts" -- erreichend is the present participle of erreichen, and "erreichend die Kreuzung", as a participial phrase, is now an "adverbial" and is used as an adjective to describe the state of being of the person being given the directions. (In English the equivalent phrase would be "Reaching the intersection...")

Participial phrases can also be used for past participles, too. I think they're called Partizipkonstruktionen in German, or in this case, Adverbialsätze... a lot of the grammar terms are pretty close because they come from Latin roots, we just Englishify em and the Germans just Deutschify em. :P

Todesengel wrote:
A Schuh is a shoe. A Handschuh is a glove. And a Panzerhandscuh is a gauntlet.


Yep, German really likes its compound words. :D

EDIT:

I needn't have worried, there are a million copies of the Märchen online. ;) This is what I think you're talking about:

Quote:
Nun stieg sie in das Schiff, und der König führte sie hinein; der getreue Johannes aber blieb zurück bei dem Steuermann und hieß das Schiff abstoßen: “Spannt alle Segel auf, daß es fliegt wie ein Vogel in der Luft.”


Here's how I'd translate it:
Quote:
Now they climbed aboard the ship, and the king led her inside; but the faithful Johannes stayed behind with the helmsman and ordered the ship to push off: "Spread all sails, so it flies like a bird in the sky."


so he isn't saying the sails ARE a bird, he is saying the ship will move so quickly that it will be like a bird.

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Last edited by NadjaCS on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:33 pm 
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I didn't see them as participles though; they were just third or second person verbs, if I remember correctly. They were actually instructions for this game. I think it was something like, "when you hold down the A button, you can..."

About the seagull thing: crud, I thought they were talking about a bird because they described one in that story flying or something. I actually did find Möwe in a previous game I played earlier, but simply forgot it.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:41 pm 
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heh, you are too quick, I was just in the process of editing my post, having found the part I thought you were looking at. looks like it was the right bit after all. ;)

but if you want to say "when you hold down the A button" it is not the same construction as saying "holding down the A button". In the first one, there is no participle, thus no participial phrase. In the second one, there is, so there is. ;) it is pretty much identical in meaning, but it is a different grammatical construction.

I don't know exactly what you mean with the games tho. If it was meant as a language learning tool then they would presumably be precise, but if it is just a game where you can change the language settings, they probably only care about the meaning and might use different phrasing, so I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:46 pm 
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No, it's not a learning game. I prefer to learn stuff that way.

But ja, I meant to say they have the same meaning, so I'm sorry if that confused you. It's probably also because they do the same thing in Latin (I studied that too), and you can translate their participle as either "when..." or the participle phrase itself. I thought of both, and that's probably why I didn't make that distinction.

I hope I got this right, but I found that "treue" and "treu" in Tanenbaum, which I think means unchanging.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:57 pm 
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yeah, it can be used that way. it's related to our "true" but it is closer to older usages -- think of someone who is "true to his word" or something that is "tried and true" rather than something having truth.... stalwart, steady, trustworthy, faithful.... unchanging fits right in. :)

I like immersing myself in languages, too... any time I have an option, I install software in languages I'm studying instead of in English. (mostly german, tho I have a couple things set to russian and finnish...)

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:03 pm 
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And then there's the treu in Du Hast.

But I found vertrauen is the verb for entrusting. Looks similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Deutsch für Anfänger
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:53 am 
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Todesengel wrote:
And then there's the treu in Du Hast.

But I found vertrauen is the verb for entrusting. Looks similar.


Not unusual in German. Stem vowel changes are frequent enough, and in spite of them, you can usually tell when verbs are related.

"verlieren" and "verloren", for example. Present and past forms of the same verb.
I always thought "verloren" was somehow similar to English "forlorn". A quick look on the internet shows that "forlorn" is from Middle English "forloren" - to lose - which sounds even closer to verloren.


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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:34 am 
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Ja, but you still have to be careful. Verschwinden means to disappear, but verschwenden means to waste.

And here are several other interesting words with roots similar to English:

A pfeife is a pipe, as in a fife.

Verschwindeln is related to the word in English for swindle.

A Pflicht is duty; related to plight.

Knabe is a boy; related to knave.

Feind is a fiend (it's pronounced differently though.)

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