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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:59 am 
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Biest wrote:
I know what the die is for, but why is it where it is.

I think Nirnad has explained this well, but just a bit more info: in the nominative case, the definite article in German looks the same as the relative (relating back to the most recent noun; in English: who, which, that, whom, whose) and demonstrative (specifying a certain one: this, that, these, those) pronouns.

We have lots of words like this in English, too, with multiple completely different meanings and usages for what looks like the same word, for example "set". It's spelled the same, but it is not always really the same word. For example, I can set the table and I might have a chess set. In this case you have to look at where the word is in the sentence to know if it is a verb or a noun and the context gives you the rest of the information about which kind of "set" we are talking about.

It's the same in German, you have to look at the whole sentence (or at least the whole phrase) before you can just assume that an article der/das/die is the definite article or if it is something else.

So when you see "Der Mutter", you have to already know that Mutter is feminine, so "der" can't be *just* "the", it is "the" in either dative or genitive case, and you need more of the sentence to be able to figure out which one.

Biest wrote:
Is it like the gender like "die da" (Her, there).

Careful, remember "die" is both the feminine AND the plural definite article. So in "kalte Zungen die da schlagen" it is plural, referring back to "die Zungen". Cold tongues WHICH beat there.

Biest wrote:
So like for example if Mutter was neutral (EXAMPLE) would it be Der Mutter das mich nie geboren hatte?


If you had a neutral noun then yeah, "die mich" would change to "das mich", but the "Der Mutter" would have to change, too. "Der" here is dative for a feminine noun, you'd need "dem" for the dative of a neutral noun. So, for example, "dem Mütterchen das mich nie geboren hatte habe ich heute nacht geschworen".

And it can be a little more confusing sometimes in songs because sometimes things are out of the normal neutral word order (or words get dropped or shortened) either to give emphasis or to help with rhythm or rhyming. I guess "hatte" was dropped for the rhythm and so that geboren and geschworen could rhyme.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:12 am 
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Okay, I see how that works. Now, when is the time to use it? Like, hmmm, can I do

"Der Hund der tut mir weh"? The dog that hurts me (I'm desperate)
ummm

Idk, is there like a rule in a certain case for when I use this? Or is it just something I can do anytime?


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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:05 am 
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You don't have to use it, but it shortens your expression. You use one instead of two sentences.

"Der Hund der tut/tat mir weh" is grammatical correct but uncommon. I would say "Der Hund tut/tat mir weh"
But if you say "Der Hund der mir weh tut/tat..." you have to complete the sentence. It is just a subordinate clause. (Nebensatz)


But now I have a question.
I know about the difference comparing to german about this:

you must - Du musst
you mustn't - Du darfst nicht
you needn't - Du musst nicht/ Du brauchst nicht

But when do I have to use "must" and when "have to"?

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:31 am 
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there is no difference in meaning here between "have to" and "must", but "must" sounds more formal. Also mixed in there with pretty much the same meaning are "need to" and "have got to".

"I must go now" sounds a bit formal but means the same as "I have to go now" or "I have got to go now" (more likely: I've gotta go now ;) or with emphasis on GOT) or "I need to go now".

I hadn't thought about it much, but I think I hardly ever say "must". If I want to emphasise something maybe, or when I am writing instructions or something... but in speech I usually say "have to" or "need to", or for emphasis, "have got to".

Example - normal speech:
(kid running around like crazy)
Mom, to her husband: we have GOT to get that kid to bed or I'll go crazy
Dad: OK Timmy, time for your bath!
Timmy: do I have to??
Mom: yes, you need to take a bath then brush your teeth and hop into bed
Timmy: but I don't wanna!
Dad: but you have to, now SCOOT!

;)

alternative example - formal written:
In order for the cluster to function correctly, you must have separate IP addresses assigned for each server and for each resource, including one for the cluster virtual resource. These must be unique addresses reserved for these purposes and they should preferably also have unique names, resolvable in DNS.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:41 am 
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Ah thanks a lot. I researched a little bit on the internet and found this:

"Have to" and "must" have the same meaning in the affirmative and interrogative forms when referring to obligation. Some grammarians think that "must" is slightly stronger, but for all practical purposes, they mean the same thing:

Doctors have to attend medical school for several years before they can practice medicine.

Doctors must attend medical school for several years before they can practice medicine.

While "have to" and "must" can be used interchangeably, there are differences in usage, as Michael Swan observes in Practical English Usage (Oxford University Press, 1995):

Both verbs can be used in British English to talk about obligation. (In American English, 'have to' is the normal form.) British English often makes a distinction as follows. 'Must' is used mostly to talk about the feelings and wishes of the speaker and hearer — for example, to give or ask for orders. 'Have (got) to' is used mostly to talk about obligations that come from "outside" — for example from laws, regulations, agreements and other people's orders. Compare:

I must stop smoking. (I want to.)
I have to stop smoking. Doctor's orders.

This is a terrible party. We really must go home.
This is a lovely party, but we've got to go home because of the baby-sitter.

Must you wear dirty old jeans all the time? (Is it personally important for you?)
Do you have to wear a tie at work? (Is there a regulation?)
.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:01 pm 
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hmm, well, it is possible that is a difference between BE and AE I hadn't really noticed before... :) in American English, I would say they mean exactly the same thing, no overtones of internal vs external obligation. "Must" simply sounds more formal. (and perhaps that formality lends a bit of emphasis... but only a bit.)

But that "Must you wear dirty jeans?" example, that is actually a time I might use it in normal speech. But it is more sort of a sarcastic sort of emphasis... Must you play your game in here while I'm working? Must you sing along to the music on your headphones? Must you always leave your dirty socks on the floor?

but even in this case, I would still probably normally use "have to"...

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:18 pm 
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Here is an odd question ...

There is this commercial here with a little German in it. Yes, I was a giggling fool when I understood what was being said, and it's like 3 very short, tiny lines spoken quite slowly :oops:
Anyway ... one of the people says "Auf los" and they leave. I know los means 'let's go', and auf can mean the same thing. Isn't 'auf los' sort of repetitive? Like 'go go' :lol:

I said it was an odd question :P :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:16 am 
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I think you've got it right... "go go" works for me. ;)

edit: altho in a race, "auf los" is like "on go", as in "auf los gehts los" (on go, it starts going). "auf die plätze, fertig, los" is the equivalent of "on your mark, get set, go".

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:33 am 
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Thanks!

hehe, go go :lol: Every time I see that I get "We've Got The Beat" stuck in my head :rolling:
Sorry!

I thought maybe it might imply a more rushed 'let's go.' More like a 'let's get the hell out of here' sort of thing, only not quite that serious. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:11 am 
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well, literally it is "up/on go", but things like that don't really translate directly. I would think you get as much info from tone of voice in this case as from the actual words. :) so translate it with whatever you would say in the same situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Thanks Nadja :hug:

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:41 am 
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I'm sure someone else can explain this better ... but I'll try :oops:

aus is a preposition. It can mean, but is not limited to:

from
in
of
off
out
over

Think of Live Aus Berlin. It means 'from' in this case. But then in Sonne it means 'out' as in counting someone out in a boxing match.

raus, I believe is an adjective.
I think raus means 'out' when talking about a movement. Like when you say get out {Raus hier! or Komm Raus!}, you're telling the person to physical move out of the room.
I think that's how it's normally used. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:16 am 
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Onyx has got it, except it is an adverb because it is describing a verb. :)

btw, raus is short for heraus. normally, "her" indicates movement towards the speaker (although I have read that in some regions it gets combined so hinaus and heraus would both be raus, for example) and pretty much all the prepositions can have hin and her added to them to indicate a direction of movement.

Ich gehe jetzt hinaus und hol mal die Post. (Person A is inside going outside - motion away from speaker)
Komm herein! (Person A inside telling Person B outside to come in - motion towards speaker)
Geh hinunter zum Cafe. (Person A and B are both upstairs - motion away from speaker)
Komm sofort runter vom Baum! (Person A on the ground, Person B is above them - motion towards speaker)

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:28 pm 
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Thanks, Nadja. I always forget heraus. Even thought I wrote it down in my notebook just the other day! :doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Grammatik Fragen
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:16 pm 
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I don't know if this is the right thread, but I was curious how the Oomph-Supernova site got "No hand reached out for you" out of "Keine Hand breit für dich." I tried finding the meaning to breit (and its infinitive) and I tried finding a translation for "to reach out," but I'm coming up clueless. Is this translated because of context, or what...

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