Ok. This thread started as an off-topic discussion in the "Questions about Rammstein" and I was politely asked to open a new topic here if I wanted to continue with the discussion. We were talking about a lot of things there - the Pussy video and it's public perception, can we blame the Rammstein guys for the horrors of the porn industry, is porn evil, do women watch porn, should female journalists question Rammstein about their Pussy video, are Rammstein sexist, what is responsible for the affirmation of gender stereotypes in our society, etc. It will be rather interesting to see what the large female population of the forum has to say about this. I know this is a somewhat sensitive topic, but I'm sure we can have a civilized discussion with some critical thinking, etc, without getting too agitated and offending each other personally.
Due to the moderation policy of the forum we couldn't get a split of the posts here, so I'll just quote all of the posts related to this discussion so that you can see what we've talked about so far.
About the number of songs - Paul said in an interview that they thought about it, did some research (or something like that) and decided that 11 was a good number. Large enough, so that the fans don't feel robbed when they buy the albums and small enough so that the albums end before they get boring.
I think it was from this interview here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIIGTCoc3I
It was 2 hours long, for some German radio station. Only Paul and Flake were there, unfortunately, and the woman who interviewed them was some chick who got offended by their Pussy video. She was asking some really stupid questions and Paul got irritated at the end.
Anyway, the interview still provides a lot of interesting info about the band. Some good fellow fan out there translated it for us non-German speaking folk.
^ I liked that interviewer. She was well informed about Rammstein and their music and seemed to admire them, and her questions about the Pussy video were perfectly valid to ask. I'm not opposed to porn myself and I wasn't offended by Pussy, but I recognise there are issues about pornography. I think it was a bit crappy how the band just dismissed any woman who asked them about it. Normally they're very intelligent about responding to potential problems in their work, but I was disappointed in them in the instances they were questioned about Pussy.
I didn't like her very much - she was kinda picking up a fight from time to time and at the end, when she started sharing her views about the Pussy video and the porn in general, she was rather annoying. I don't like pseudo-emancipated-feminists like her, who complain about sexual objectification of the women in the porn movies and about how terrible porn is for the human relationships and in the same time read women magazines (she was saying something about that in the beginning of the interview), which have done more for the sexual objectification of the women around the world than any porn men have created.
I think that we objectify sexually the men as much as they objectify us (look at the Drool Bucket here ffs), so we have no right to complain. It's unbelievably hypocritical on our part. Also, you can indeed get a pretty skewed view on human relationships from the porn movies, but same can be said about the chick-magazines, chick-lit and chick-flicks women tend to overdose with. Sometimes I get seriously scared by the modern mating rituals in my part of the world.
She had only one valid (to my opinion) point there - that due to the porn social stigma, some people might dismiss LIFAD as a crappy album, filled with superficial pussy songs. To what Paul, being the awesome guy that he is, said that Rammstein trusted their fans to be able to see beyond the simplistic provocations. That we do!
Other than that the interview was really interesting and provided a lot of priceless information about the band's creative process. So I enjoyed it a lot.
^ I thought it was good to see an interviewer - esp. a female one - try to nail them on answering some tough questions regarding Pussy. Clearly they didn't wish to answer, but I'm glad she did.
^^ I don't think it's right to dismiss her questions as invalid. Plenty of women - and men - have those concerns about porn. I was concerned myself when I first heard about the Pussy video.
I will never understand the concerns humanity has about porn. What's the big deal, really? It's just sex - one of the most normal and natural things for us, humans, just like eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.. We all need it as individuals and as species. We used to do it without fussing so much about it a few thousand years ago, then it was stigmatized by several major religions and we ended up with a morally ambiguous society, which has concerns about porn and sex more than it has concerns about violence. Go figure.
From my observations, Europeans tend to get less scandalized by this kind of things and censor them less. Maybe it's because Europe is less religious now. For me it was somewhat of a culture shock to see how people perceive sex here in North America and rate some movies, music lyrics, etc. So, I can't come up with anything that can be considered as "tough question" on this topic because the guys from Rammstein haven't done anything that controversial or wrong in my eyes to begin with.
Actually, I don't get the offensive sexist vibe from them at all. Yeah, they made a porn video, but I can't sense real objectification of women in their art. Other bands that I love, like Manowar, are so much worse in this respect.
Also, I just LOVE the experiment they did with the online distribution of the video. About time someone showed the finger to some parasitic structures in the musical industry...
Anyway, that strays the topic into off-topic, for which I apologize.
^ Before we get too far off topic (maybe a thread needs to be created in Discussion?)
here, I totally disagree that porn is just "sex". I think the two are miles apart.
Some porn is "just sex"
and some is "snuff" (murder as sex)
and "kiddy" (children as sex toys)
and other horrors.
It's unwise to dismiss it as either thing offhand.
I wasn't as upset about her wanting to question them about it as her seeming obsessed about that one song. It's VERY mild porn and I have to suspect she was too chicken to watch it with both eyes uncovered before she did the interview. In fact, I find "Ich Tu" much more twisted, sexually. It's obviously about self-torture.
That part of the interview became a time-waster rather soon. Paul and Flake seemed to me to be more bored than upset.
It is nice to see a transcription/translation. There's a lot of interesting stuff in it beside that bit. I was especially interested that Jonas had the idea of shooting a video in a mental institution that long ago! Have they been mulling over "MHB"
^ To be honest I thought they seemed rather bored throughout the entire thing. I know Flake hates interviews and rarely gives them and was only there as a favour, but Paul is normally better at being interviewed.
Anyway, the only point I'm trying to make is that plenty of people have concerns about porn, the treatment of actors in porn, the messages porn sends to society and the pornification of mainstream entertainment and even if we don't agree with those concerns, it doesn't mean they're invalid. I think it's a bit unfair to say this woman doesn't know what she's talking about or is frightened of sex just because she was concerned about pornography. She was quite clear that her concern came from the treatment of women in porn in general - not in Pussy specifically; the concern about Pussy as far as porn is concerned is far more to do with the band being seen to support a certain view of women and sexuality.
I think it's important to ask these kind of questions and I wish the band hadn't just dismissed them as "women's issues"
I get your point, but I think a Rammstein interview was the wrong band to be using to start that discussion. Rather like going off on an orange juice company about the high sugar content of soda pop... The main reaction is bound to be "Errr... huh...?"
I think it would be far more effective to ambush Madonna on this topic. Her highly-marketed style got one of my girls raped at age 13. (And you absolutely cannot say "I told you why you shouldn't dress like that..." to a wounded child. I must say I was very proud that she left one of her stiletto heels in the crotch of one of her attackers.)
don't tell me it shouldn't be about how she was dressed. Of course not - and now you go find all the predatory males in your area and tell THEM
^ I'm terribly sorry that happened to your daughter and I hope she - and you - is doing okay now. I think the real culprit here is the rapist, though, not Madonna. Women like to dress sexily with or without Madonna's influence and of course men react to women dressed in a sexual way, nobody would deny that, but most are capable of not raping a woman in a short skirt. Of course, portrayal of sexuality in general is a question worth asking Madonna - and, indeed, any other artist who does similar things.
But in the same way I think what they think about porn is a question worth asking Rammstein given that one of their music videos is a porn film, and I don't think it's ridiculous to put the opposite side of the argument - the argument against porn - to them and see how they react. I don't know, maybe it is dumb to expect them to have any opinion on it. I certainly don't blame them for any problems that might exist in the porn industry or anything. But it still doesn't seem that bizarre to ask given the music video for Pussy.
Oh she's fine. Fighting back did a lot to save her from loss of self-esteem issues.
And it was years ago.
Unfortunately our main drag (only a block away in those days) was a main place in our city for under-age hookers. I had pointed out (more than once) that the current style was just about exactly what the hookers were wearing that year, and no she couldn't wear that.
So my kid sneaked out her bedroom window to school in her best "cheap hooker" Madonna knock-offs, which she and her friends had assembled by trading back and forth until they all had the "right" outfit - each mom being conned into giving way on one kind of item. (Damn clever these pre-teens.) She might as well have worn a sign saying "Tag, I'm IT". She got away with it that early in the morning.
I wish the school had noticed and called me, it certainly violated dress code, but her middle school was a rather useless "influence". However on her way home from school - BAM. Two guys jumped out of a white SUV and we suppose thought they were stealing a freebie from a pro. (Cheap bast**ds as well as predatory!)
Sadly the cops never caught them - two medium white guys in an ordinary ride.
At least one ended up with a sore ball.
I'm so sorry to hear that! It's terrible! And it sounds like they didn't catch the offenders...
@Cornflake, I also see your point, but we're talking about Rammstein here. They have made songs about much more brutal things than abused porn actresses. They have the videos Mann Gegen Mann and Mein Teil before the Pussy one. Till blows a plastic strap-on and gets blown himself before killing the woman who services him. Naked muscular men are fighting in the rain and push around the naked band members (pun unintended). Etc. The band doesn't glorify any of that. They don't have a message or a hidden agenda. They are exposed there as much as the objectified victims, maybe even more. Just like with their lyrics, the viewers are left to interpret the pictures for themselves. For me it's the same with the Pussy video. I don't see glorification of the porn industry there or advertisements about how good porn is. It's just a visual medium for their music which fits their song and has the shocking value they look for for whatever reason. So, it's rather pointless to go and ask the band members about gender issues and point the finger at them as if they are the people who create them. As I said, the chick-magazines which that interviewer lady is so fond of create more gender issues and affirm outdated gender stereotypes in a much more dangerous way, because people actually believe them. Moreach also gave a good example.
I wonder why nobody went and gave Rammstein pain about the Mann Gegen Mann video. We have sexually objectified men. We might even talk about homophobia if we decide to turn off our brains and ignore the whole text and everything they said in their interviews and concentrate only on the single easily identifiable offensive word "Schwulah". Well, obviously, based on the society response, men are not interesting enough victims, so we can just forget about it. But the moment we have some women porn stars in a Rammstein video, the society becomes concerned and we start with the aggressive interview questions. Automatically. Actually, this whole "gender" thing has become like an automated response today and I, as a woman, really dislike it.
have been questioned many times before as to the types of songs they create, how they present and perform them, etc. If they're going to pen songs about certain subjects - indeed, create a "porn" video about it, then it's certainly not untoward or unthinkable for an interviewer to *ask* pointed questions about it. In fact, they should expect such questions. To denigrate or belittle an interviewer for simply doing her job by asking these questions is wrong - and sexist. Think about it - no other interviewer (male) asked such questions. This alone raises some issues and questions. But when a female interviewer asks, I hear
being defended while the interviewer gets raked over the coals. What the h*ll? How unfair, sexist and just plain wrong.
Well, the interviewer is a public figure just like the Rammstein guys and has certain responsibilities as such. She has to know that she will be evaluated based on her words and deeds and at times even torn to pieces because of them. That's how it goes. Rammstein deals with this on a regular basis. She had to put things in perspective and to ask sensible questions if she wanted the audience to take her seriously. It's what I would call high quality journalism, instead of cheap superficial populism. We can't accept and applaud everything she says just because she's a woman. She has to work hard for the respect - there is nothing sexist about that. If she was a man, I would still think that the question is dumb and pointless, because, seriously, it is. Also, there are many different ways for a question to be asked. She didn't handle herself very well in this situation. I wanted to hear a dialogue with the band on the topic - not some one-sided boring feminist anti-porn preaching, finger pointing and accusations. For me, at this moment, she was pretty similar to the people who accused Rammstein of being nazis because of their Stripped video years ago.
I like porn.
Join the club!
I find the live action porn rather boring, but I like anime porn and porn fan fictions (but not about Rammstein - they're living people after all, not some fictional characters, so I can't deform the reality so much there). And I don't discriminate - I enjoy hetero, gay, lesbian porn.
By the way, the Japanese have a very developed porn anime/manga industry which targets both men AND women. A lot of women enjoy gay porn - the manga version of gay porn for women is called yaoi. The gay porn version for men is called bara. One can write a whole doctoral thesis on the difference between bara and yaoi and what they imply about the psychological differences between the two sexes in their perception of sex and romance. It's very interesting and educational, really.
And it can be hot and fun too.
That's why I really don't understand why some women get their panties in a bunch when they're faced with porn.
I have to say I'm starting to dislike the tone of some of the posts being made here. Nobody is saying that anybody has to have a certain opinion, but belittleing a point of view you disagree with is not cool.
Also, I would just like to state for the record, because I feel like some people are taking this argument as being necessarily anti-porn in all forms, that I love porn. I watch it a lot. I don't think that means there aren't questions to be asked about the way some - some - porn presents the sexuality of both men and women. Rammstein make a vid about porn, it is ergo not ridiculous to ask them about porn. That is the only argument being made here. The ethics of porn itself are a whole seperate issue.
^ Well stated.
Aaand - with that, let's continue on with
, as opposed to "boring feminists", manga, and porn of all kinds (does this include the "stomp"/"crush" kind, too? Yeah, pretty sure it does...after all, porn is only porn, right? What fun!). Those who wish to continue on the porn theme are more than welcome to create a thread to do so.
As a reply of the last quoted opinion of BeeKay, the Pussy video doesn't have any of this more aggressive types of porn in it, so the interviewer lady was actually waging a war on the most mild and standard kind which millions of people watch without turning into sociopaths. As for the more brutal types of porn, snuff, kiddy, etc - some of them are illegal for a reason and that's how it must be. About the stomp/crush thing, BDSM and etc. - there are people who enjoy this, though I'm not one of them. My opinion on such people is: whatever rocks their boat as long as it's consensual.
Actually, I think it's pretty clear what porn we're talking about here with all of the references to the Pussy video, but anyway, I'll state it just to avoid further misunderstandings. We're talking about the majority of porn movies, where we have a consensual sexual act and which are not too kinky and violent. Just like in the Pussy video.
@Cornflake, I don't object to her questioning them about the porn in their video per say. I object to the way she did that.