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 Post subject: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:42 am 
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Ok. This thread started as an off-topic discussion in the "Questions about Rammstein" and I was politely asked to open a new topic here if I wanted to continue with the discussion. We were talking about a lot of things there - the Pussy video and it's public perception, can we blame the Rammstein guys for the horrors of the porn industry, is porn evil, do women watch porn, should female journalists question Rammstein about their Pussy video, are Rammstein sexist, what is responsible for the affirmation of gender stereotypes in our society, etc. It will be rather interesting to see what the large female population of the forum has to say about this. I know this is a somewhat sensitive topic, but I'm sure we can have a civilized discussion with some critical thinking, etc, without getting too agitated and offending each other personally.

Due to the moderation policy of the forum we couldn't get a split of the posts here, so I'll just quote all of the posts related to this discussion so that you can see what we've talked about so far.

Ameliata wrote:
About the number of songs - Paul said in an interview that they thought about it, did some research (or something like that) and decided that 11 was a good number. Large enough, so that the fans don't feel robbed when they buy the albums and small enough so that the albums end before they get boring. :lol:

I think it was from this interview here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIIGTCoc3I

It was 2 hours long, for some German radio station. Only Paul and Flake were there, unfortunately, and the woman who interviewed them was some chick who got offended by their Pussy video. She was asking some really stupid questions and Paul got irritated at the end. :lol:
Anyway, the interview still provides a lot of interesting info about the band. Some good fellow fan out there translated it for us non-German speaking folk.


Cornflake wrote:
^ I liked that interviewer. She was well informed about Rammstein and their music and seemed to admire them, and her questions about the Pussy video were perfectly valid to ask. I'm not opposed to porn myself and I wasn't offended by Pussy, but I recognise there are issues about pornography. I think it was a bit crappy how the band just dismissed any woman who asked them about it. Normally they're very intelligent about responding to potential problems in their work, but I was disappointed in them in the instances they were questioned about Pussy.


Ameliata wrote:
I didn't like her very much - she was kinda picking up a fight from time to time and at the end, when she started sharing her views about the Pussy video and the porn in general, she was rather annoying. I don't like pseudo-emancipated-feminists like her, who complain about sexual objectification of the women in the porn movies and about how terrible porn is for the human relationships and in the same time read women magazines (she was saying something about that in the beginning of the interview), which have done more for the sexual objectification of the women around the world than any porn men have created. :lol:

I think that we objectify sexually the men as much as they objectify us (look at the Drool Bucket here ffs), so we have no right to complain. It's unbelievably hypocritical on our part. Also, you can indeed get a pretty skewed view on human relationships from the porn movies, but same can be said about the chick-magazines, chick-lit and chick-flicks women tend to overdose with. Sometimes I get seriously scared by the modern mating rituals in my part of the world. :lol:

She had only one valid (to my opinion) point there - that due to the porn social stigma, some people might dismiss LIFAD as a crappy album, filled with superficial pussy songs. To what Paul, being the awesome guy that he is, said that Rammstein trusted their fans to be able to see beyond the simplistic provocations. That we do!

Other than that the interview was really interesting and provided a lot of priceless information about the band's creative process. So I enjoyed it a lot.


BeeKay wrote:
^ I thought it was good to see an interviewer - esp. a female one - try to nail them on answering some tough questions regarding Pussy. Clearly they didn't wish to answer, but I'm glad she did.


Cornflake wrote:
^^ I don't think it's right to dismiss her questions as invalid. Plenty of women - and men - have those concerns about porn. I was concerned myself when I first heard about the Pussy video.


Ameliata wrote:
I will never understand the concerns humanity has about porn. What's the big deal, really? It's just sex - one of the most normal and natural things for us, humans, just like eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.. We all need it as individuals and as species. We used to do it without fussing so much about it a few thousand years ago, then it was stigmatized by several major religions and we ended up with a morally ambiguous society, which has concerns about porn and sex more than it has concerns about violence. Go figure. :lol:
From my observations, Europeans tend to get less scandalized by this kind of things and censor them less. Maybe it's because Europe is less religious now. For me it was somewhat of a culture shock to see how people perceive sex here in North America and rate some movies, music lyrics, etc. So, I can't come up with anything that can be considered as "tough question" on this topic because the guys from Rammstein haven't done anything that controversial or wrong in my eyes to begin with. :lol:
Actually, I don't get the offensive sexist vibe from them at all. Yeah, they made a porn video, but I can't sense real objectification of women in their art. Other bands that I love, like Manowar, are so much worse in this respect. :lol:
Also, I just LOVE the experiment they did with the online distribution of the video. About time someone showed the finger to some parasitic structures in the musical industry...
Anyway, that strays the topic into off-topic, for which I apologize.


BeeKay wrote:
^ Before we get too far off topic (maybe a thread needs to be created in Discussion?) :) here, I totally disagree that porn is just "sex". I think the two are miles apart. :um:


Moreach wrote:
Some porn is "just sex" :-) and some is "snuff" (murder as sex) :evil: and "kiddy" (children as sex toys) :evil: and other horrors. :shock: It's unwise to dismiss it as either thing offhand.

I wasn't as upset about her wanting to question them about it as her seeming obsessed about that one song. It's VERY mild porn and I have to suspect she was too chicken to watch it with both eyes uncovered before she did the interview. In fact, I find "Ich Tu" much more twisted, sexually. It's obviously about self-torture.

That part of the interview became a time-waster rather soon. Paul and Flake seemed to me to be more bored than upset. :um: :|

It is nice to see a transcription/translation. There's a lot of interesting stuff in it beside that bit. I was especially interested that Jonas had the idea of shooting a video in a mental institution that long ago! Have they been mulling over "MHB" :heart: ever since?


Cornflake wrote:
^ To be honest I thought they seemed rather bored throughout the entire thing. I know Flake hates interviews and rarely gives them and was only there as a favour, but Paul is normally better at being interviewed.

Anyway, the only point I'm trying to make is that plenty of people have concerns about porn, the treatment of actors in porn, the messages porn sends to society and the pornification of mainstream entertainment and even if we don't agree with those concerns, it doesn't mean they're invalid. I think it's a bit unfair to say this woman doesn't know what she's talking about or is frightened of sex just because she was concerned about pornography. She was quite clear that her concern came from the treatment of women in porn in general - not in Pussy specifically; the concern about Pussy as far as porn is concerned is far more to do with the band being seen to support a certain view of women and sexuality.

I think it's important to ask these kind of questions and I wish the band hadn't just dismissed them as "women's issues" :|


Moreach wrote:
^
I get your point, but I think a Rammstein interview was the wrong band to be using to start that discussion. Rather like going off on an orange juice company about the high sugar content of soda pop... The main reaction is bound to be "Errr... huh...?"

I think it would be far more effective to ambush Madonna on this topic. Her highly-marketed style got one of my girls raped at age 13. :evil:

(And you absolutely cannot say "I told you why you shouldn't dress like that..." to a wounded child. I must say I was very proud that she left one of her stiletto heels in the crotch of one of her attackers.)

And PLEASE don't tell me it shouldn't be about how she was dressed. Of course not - and now you go find all the predatory males in your area and tell THEM that.


Cornflake wrote:
^ I'm terribly sorry that happened to your daughter and I hope she - and you - is doing okay now. I think the real culprit here is the rapist, though, not Madonna. Women like to dress sexily with or without Madonna's influence and of course men react to women dressed in a sexual way, nobody would deny that, but most are capable of not raping a woman in a short skirt. Of course, portrayal of sexuality in general is a question worth asking Madonna - and, indeed, any other artist who does similar things.

But in the same way I think what they think about porn is a question worth asking Rammstein given that one of their music videos is a porn film, and I don't think it's ridiculous to put the opposite side of the argument - the argument against porn - to them and see how they react. I don't know, maybe it is dumb to expect them to have any opinion on it. I certainly don't blame them for any problems that might exist in the porn industry or anything. But it still doesn't seem that bizarre to ask given the music video for Pussy.


Moreach wrote:
^
Oh she's fine. Fighting back did a lot to save her from loss of self-esteem issues. :twisted: And it was years ago.

Unfortunately our main drag (only a block away in those days) was a main place in our city for under-age hookers. I had pointed out (more than once) that the current style was just about exactly what the hookers were wearing that year, and no she couldn't wear that. :roll: So my kid sneaked out her bedroom window to school in her best "cheap hooker" Madonna knock-offs, which she and her friends had assembled by trading back and forth until they all had the "right" outfit - each mom being conned into giving way on one kind of item. (Damn clever these pre-teens.) She might as well have worn a sign saying "Tag, I'm IT". She got away with it that early in the morning.

I wish the school had noticed and called me, it certainly violated dress code, but her middle school was a rather useless "influence". However on her way home from school - BAM. Two guys jumped out of a white SUV and we suppose thought they were stealing a freebie from a pro. (Cheap bast**ds as well as predatory!) Sadly the cops never caught them - two medium white guys in an ordinary ride.

At least one ended up with a sore ball. :twisted:


Ameliata wrote:
@Moreach
I'm so sorry to hear that! It's terrible! And it sounds like they didn't catch the offenders... :(

@Cornflake, I also see your point, but we're talking about Rammstein here. They have made songs about much more brutal things than abused porn actresses. They have the videos Mann Gegen Mann and Mein Teil before the Pussy one. Till blows a plastic strap-on and gets blown himself before killing the woman who services him. Naked muscular men are fighting in the rain and push around the naked band members (pun unintended). Etc. The band doesn't glorify any of that. They don't have a message or a hidden agenda. They are exposed there as much as the objectified victims, maybe even more. Just like with their lyrics, the viewers are left to interpret the pictures for themselves. For me it's the same with the Pussy video. I don't see glorification of the porn industry there or advertisements about how good porn is. It's just a visual medium for their music which fits their song and has the shocking value they look for for whatever reason. So, it's rather pointless to go and ask the band members about gender issues and point the finger at them as if they are the people who create them. As I said, the chick-magazines which that interviewer lady is so fond of create more gender issues and affirm outdated gender stereotypes in a much more dangerous way, because people actually believe them. Moreach also gave a good example.

I wonder why nobody went and gave Rammstein pain about the Mann Gegen Mann video. We have sexually objectified men. We might even talk about homophobia if we decide to turn off our brains and ignore the whole text and everything they said in their interviews and concentrate only on the single easily identifiable offensive word "Schwulah". Well, obviously, based on the society response, men are not interesting enough victims, so we can just forget about it. But the moment we have some women porn stars in a Rammstein video, the society becomes concerned and we start with the aggressive interview questions. Automatically. Actually, this whole "gender" thing has become like an automated response today and I, as a woman, really dislike it.


BeeKay wrote:
^ R+ have been questioned many times before as to the types of songs they create, how they present and perform them, etc. If they're going to pen songs about certain subjects - indeed, create a "porn" video about it, then it's certainly not untoward or unthinkable for an interviewer to *ask* pointed questions about it. In fact, they should expect such questions. To denigrate or belittle an interviewer for simply doing her job by asking these questions is wrong - and sexist. Think about it - no other interviewer (male) asked such questions. This alone raises some issues and questions. But when a female interviewer asks, I hear R+ being defended while the interviewer gets raked over the coals. What the h*ll? How unfair, sexist and just plain wrong.


Ameliata wrote:
Well, the interviewer is a public figure just like the Rammstein guys and has certain responsibilities as such. She has to know that she will be evaluated based on her words and deeds and at times even torn to pieces because of them. That's how it goes. Rammstein deals with this on a regular basis. She had to put things in perspective and to ask sensible questions if she wanted the audience to take her seriously. It's what I would call high quality journalism, instead of cheap superficial populism. We can't accept and applaud everything she says just because she's a woman. She has to work hard for the respect - there is nothing sexist about that. If she was a man, I would still think that the question is dumb and pointless, because, seriously, it is. Also, there are many different ways for a question to be asked. She didn't handle herself very well in this situation. I wanted to hear a dialogue with the band on the topic - not some one-sided boring feminist anti-porn preaching, finger pointing and accusations. For me, at this moment, she was pretty similar to the people who accused Rammstein of being nazis because of their Stripped video years ago.


Ahoi!!! wrote:
I like porn.


Ameliata wrote:
@Ahoi!!!
Join the club! :lol:
I find the live action porn rather boring, but I like anime porn and porn fan fictions (but not about Rammstein - they're living people after all, not some fictional characters, so I can't deform the reality so much there). And I don't discriminate - I enjoy hetero, gay, lesbian porn. :lol:
By the way, the Japanese have a very developed porn anime/manga industry which targets both men AND women. A lot of women enjoy gay porn - the manga version of gay porn for women is called yaoi. The gay porn version for men is called bara. One can write a whole doctoral thesis on the difference between bara and yaoi and what they imply about the psychological differences between the two sexes in their perception of sex and romance. It's very interesting and educational, really. :lol:
And it can be hot and fun too. :lol:

That's why I really don't understand why some women get their panties in a bunch when they're faced with porn.


Cornflake wrote:
I have to say I'm starting to dislike the tone of some of the posts being made here. Nobody is saying that anybody has to have a certain opinion, but belittleing a point of view you disagree with is not cool.

Also, I would just like to state for the record, because I feel like some people are taking this argument as being necessarily anti-porn in all forms, that I love porn. I watch it a lot. I don't think that means there aren't questions to be asked about the way some - some - porn presents the sexuality of both men and women. Rammstein make a vid about porn, it is ergo not ridiculous to ask them about porn. That is the only argument being made here. The ethics of porn itself are a whole seperate issue.


BeeKay wrote:
^ Well stated.
Aaand - with that, let's continue on with R+, as opposed to "boring feminists", manga, and porn of all kinds (does this include the "stomp"/"crush" kind, too? Yeah, pretty sure it does...after all, porn is only porn, right? What fun!). Those who wish to continue on the porn theme are more than welcome to create a thread to do so.


As a reply of the last quoted opinion of BeeKay, the Pussy video doesn't have any of this more aggressive types of porn in it, so the interviewer lady was actually waging a war on the most mild and standard kind which millions of people watch without turning into sociopaths. As for the more brutal types of porn, snuff, kiddy, etc - some of them are illegal for a reason and that's how it must be. About the stomp/crush thing, BDSM and etc. - there are people who enjoy this, though I'm not one of them. My opinion on such people is: whatever rocks their boat as long as it's consensual.
Actually, I think it's pretty clear what porn we're talking about here with all of the references to the Pussy video, but anyway, I'll state it just to avoid further misunderstandings. We're talking about the majority of porn movies, where we have a consensual sexual act and which are not too kinky and violent. Just like in the Pussy video.

@Cornflake, I don't object to her questioning them about the porn in their video per say. I object to the way she did that.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:35 am 
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^ I don't understand what you object to about the way she did it. All she did was give her opinion of porn, which is a negative one, and then ask what they thought of that opinion. I understand you disagree with her opinion that all porn is bad, and I disagree with it too, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the way she asked the question.

In terms of whether I think Rammstein are sexist because they made the Pussy video, I don't, partly because I see it as being pretty light-hearted, almost a kind of parody (seeing the stereotypical porn "characters" the boys and the actresses play in their scenes). I also do think that, like some people were saying in the other thread, Rammstein are a band. Porn is not what they do. I don't expect them to have some grand moral position on pornography, either for or against it. (Which, to clarify, is different from thinking they shouldn't be asked about it.)


If we're talking porn in general, this is my position: in theory I have no issue with porn at all. I also watch a lot of porn myself and enjoy it. It has helped me discover what I enjoy sexually. I also think it is better to have a legal porn industry that can be regulated rather than ban it, because I think there will always be a demand for porn and illegal porn would get very dodgy very fast.
However just because I agree with porn in theory and enjoy some of it doesn't mean I agree with everything about porn. My issues with mainstream pornography are:
- It presents a very singular view of both male and female sexuality and how men and women should have sex with each other.
- It presents a very singular view of what are acceptable male and female bodies.
- People who aren't white, thin, cisgender and traditionally attractive are pretty much only shown as fetish objects.
- There are issues with STIs, drugs, and treatment of actors. I know this is not the case in all porn, but these issues do exist. If anything this makes me feel porn should be MORE mainstream, in one way, so that actors have more rights and they are easier to enforce.
- I don't like the way porn has completely invaded every other area of society. Porn is porn and that's great, but porn should stay porn. It's a bit depressing to me where we're now in a situation where a lot of, say, body ideals or appearance preferences (especially things like body hair) started in porn.

I know that porn of almost everything exists, but mainstream porn - like the porn Rammstein were showing in Pussy - needs to be more diverse. It needs more racial diversity, it needs more body diversity, it needs more LGBT representation, and it needs to do these things without fetishising them.

tl;dr I like porn and I don't think you can ever get rid of it, but it needs to be more diverse and better regulated.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:37 pm 
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@ Ameliata: How nice to state you were "politely" asked to create a new thread, and I'm glad you eventually did so that you can continue your discussion. Additionally, I'm sure that the vast majority (if not all) the folks here have already seen the Pussy vid and have been able to ID it as the proper genre of porn.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:55 pm 
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^^I still think that the interviewer was unnecessarily insistent and aggressive in her questions though. Anyway, let's agree to disagree on that. :)

About the diversity of mainstream porn - I think it's pretty diverse already. The different races, LGBT representations, etc. are quite popular as far as I can tell and I don't see them as fetishized. For me they have been a part of the mainstream porn for a long time already. Yeah, they still have some labels and tags that point at their content, of course, but there are thousands of video clips that can be found all over the internet and you don't have to go to some obscure specialized websites to see them. So the labels and tags are mostly to facilitate the search process. Or maybe you were talking about porn on the TV? I haven't watched TV in more than 10 years so I have no idea what they show there... :lol:

I agree with most of your points otherwise - there are some moral and social issues with porn that can't be neglected. And yes, porn can be quite educational and can enrich your sex life. But I don't think that porn influences us that much in our every-day life. The mainstream media is what does it - that's where we watch exceptionally beautiful men and women in stereotypical relationships. We can see these non-average people watch us from the magazine covers and the TV screens. They form certain cultural ideals and expectations and that has been going on long before porn became popular and easily accessible. Look at the old black-and-white movies with all of their beautiful and super-feminine actresses for example. The mainstream media also underrepresents the other races, inter-racial couples and LGBT couples. And I'm talking about pure romance fiction here - not sex. The issue about LGBT people is still very sensitive even in the so called developed parts of the world, so we don't see much of them in the popular movies and TV series. Though things have started to change recently and it's a good change. Now, let's see when we'll have popular romantic movies or TV series with an overweight female lead and, say, some good looking male lead. That would be an interesting watch. :lol: The funny thing is that I can find porn with such characters more easily than mainstream media stuff...

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:19 pm 
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^ No, I was talking about porn on the internet. Regular mainstream porn like in Pussy. Of course you can find anything in porn if you want to; someone somewhere is making it. And of course there is a big LGBT - particularly gay male - porn industry as well. But still the majority of porn actors are white, have certain looks, etc. This is true for the men as well as the women. When I say looks I don't necessarily just mean the way their faces look, although they do all present a very stereotypical view of beauty. I also mean things like the way their genitals look. There's been a massive increase in recent years in, for example, women getting surgery on perfectly healthy labias because they're not "perfect". It's things like that, which come from porn and then seep into mainstream society, that I object to - the image of what is a "perfect" labia or a "perfect" cock and/or balls, the idea that all people should all be hairless at all times, and so on. Especially people of colour, bigger people, or transgender/transsexual people are pretty much presented exclusively as fetish objects unless you go to non-mainstream porn sites.

Like I said, I also think mainstream porn presents a very singular view of how a man and woman have sex: man is dominant, woman is pretty much just bounced aroujnd on his penis, choked on his penis, he ejaculates on her face, anal sex is pretty much a given, etc. There's nothing wrong with having sex like that. But when mainstream porn is pretty much presenting that as the only way to have sex, that's a problem. Of course that is also a problem with sex education because I think a lot of kids just don't get enough of that to understand that porn is supposed to be fantasy material, and that isn't the fault of the porn industry; then again, I don't particularly want to watch that kind of sex and I have to go to non-mainstream places to find stuff that's different.
Also, any kind of submissiveness in a man is pretty difficult to find unless it's part of bdsm. Which I love, but sometimes I just want some more vanilla sex with the woman in control you know? :lol: And not every man who wants a more sexually dominant woman wants to be hog-tied to a table and lashed with whips.

Of course I agree the mainstream media also presents a lot of very problematic stereotypes, and not all of those come from porn. And porn also reflects stereotypes that already exist in society.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:33 pm 
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This i why I prefer amateur haha!

Seriously though the only porn I have seen that has women treated like a piece of meat are the Gonzo style films. Most of the porn I have seen it has always been gross looking men with younger women and sometimes you can just see how gross out the girl is. I don't have much to say on the matter as I think it's all about a certain fantasy. Some guys like that "macho" choking the girl with his :x: and violating her in all ways crap. I don't think there's anything wrong with that tbh. Of course some women are treated badly but I would think there are more that aren't.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:54 pm 
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^ It is absolutely about fantasy, and that's one of the reasons we need better sex education for teenagers.

I don't mind if a guy is into choking a girl on his cock and stuff, that's fine (as long as it's consensual obviously), but I do wish there was more variety.

I also prefer amateur porn 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:04 pm 
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^^ Yeah... Now that you said about it, submissive men are rare in porn. One more reason for me to enjoy gay porn - there at least one of the men will be submissive, guaranteed. :lol:
And of course - the anime porn. It has many other issues, related to Japanese sexual cliches which can be quite bizarre and sometimes rather disturbing, but at least you know nobody suffered while making it and the genitalia, if visible at all, won't give strange body modification ideas to anybody. :lol:

It's still pretty obvious that porn is made mainly for male audience. Someone has to tell the porn creators that women also have needs. My major issue with porn is actually not in the way women and sex are portrayed, but the way you can very rarely see the faces of the male actors. You can't read much emotion or enjoyment from the sexual act from the periodic movement of the male's butt or from a piece of abs and genitalia, right? You need a face and a voice for that and unfortunately, they don't show them much (unless you watch gay porn of course :lol:). Which makes standard heterosexual porn much less hot for me. I guess they film it in such way so that the male audience can self-identify with the porn actor on screen. Not having a face helps for that.

SexEd is super important. We don't have ANY in the schools in Bulgaria. This has created a lot of problems, much more dangerous than bland and boring pornographic media... We've had some debates whether it's necessary but for now it's left to the parents and they of course feel too awkward to talk about this. And in the meantime our kids become sexually active relatively early (around 15-17) with or without sexual education. Trouble in the making.

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:38 pm 
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^ Oh absolutely. The man in a lot of porn basically does nothing other than make the occasional comment like "Oh yeah you love it suck my cock" and is usually silent throughout. And occasionally they do a close up of part of his bum or just his cock - or the good old hanging wobbling balls when they film from behind :doh: :lol:

This is changing a bit I think; women are starting to start up companies making porn that is more focused towards women, which is great. We need more but it is starting to happen.

But yes, I also enjoy gay porn for that reason. (Well, that and I always did like two dudes together :blush: )

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:41 am 
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^^^

Women are generally getting better at producing it, too, I think. Having watched pornography produced by women, it's actually more intense and "believable" than the mainstream porn produced by men, which - as you've all noted - focuses on machismo and domination by the male. Pornography produced by women seems to focus heavily on sensuality; not just genitalia, but facial expressions, reactions, and the connection between the people involved.
Playing up to gender stereotypes, I suppose, but male-produced pornography is very singular and to-the-point: hardcore sex with no lead-up or any emotional connection. Given the sex-driven male mindset portrayed in the lyrics of "Pussy", it's fitting that they would use the mainstream pornographic approach in the music video. Like Cornflake, I don't really see this type of pornography as inherently bad, but it does foster expectations of sexual dynamics.

To use an example, a friend once mentioned to me that her sexual partners have all unanimously expressed interest in anal sex, and they told her their interest was motivated by the act's prominence in pornography. As a man, I've seen and heard a lot of things that suggest that pornography does influence people's personal perceptions of sexuality, and the implications of that on a social level are cause for caution.
As Ameliata mentioned Japan: that country has actually had quite a bit of trouble with sexual assaults on subway trains, to the degree that train systems have been implementing cars for women only. A major genre in Japanese pornography seems to involve groping and other sexual acts with women in subway trains, and it seems likely that the sexual assault trend may be a symptom of men watching this pornography and attempting to do the same thing. Sexual attitudes towards women - there is a large tendency towards submissiveness in women - in Japan may also contribute to this. The pornography itself doesn't "cause" the mindset, but there are suggestible (and worryingly, sometimes disturbed) people who will attempt to emulate what they see in porn, be it a mainstream sex act or staged sexual assaults on actresses, in reality.

So I think that questioning Rammstein on their views on issues of pornography, the reception of their music video, and so on is perfectly valid. Rammstein is a band that prides itself on tackling difficult and taboo subjects through music, in very straightforward and frank ways. Pornography, while a perfectly natural extension of human sexuality, does raise some difficult questions, and it is actually kind of sad to see the band dodge away from discussing something that, given their song catalog, you'd expect them to be perfectly at home with. Perhaps it was just the conditions of the interview - maybe they felt it had dragged on long enough as is and didn't want to engage the potentially heavy subject - but a band that raises hard-hitting questions should take care not to avoid answering them themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:35 am 
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I think if we want to think rationally about porn, and sex in general, we have to first deal with the emotional differences between the sexes. Because for procreation to be... well... reliable, the male has to penetrate. In animals the female[s] may not be very willing, just "ready". So the successful male - for hundreds of thousands (millions?) of years - must be at least somewhat aggressive. This remains with us.

I don't think women think much about what starting to become sexually active must be like for young males of any thoughtful nature... What's it like to take the most sensitive part of your body (aside from your tongue) and ramp up your courage to stick it inside another human? Humans are tricky and dangerous as a species! I asked such a man recently, and he confirmed that it had been scary! Uncircumcised, he also bled as a virgin... (We got into this discussing the bleeding lyric in "Frühling in Paris".)

I asked another (who had a huge number of older brothers) and this hadn't occurred to him at all because he'd heard all about sex before his first try.

So males must either be "driven" to mate, or they must be blasé and not think much about that aspect - however thoughtful and evolved in other settings...

This leaves us with a male that is on average more actively driven than the average female. Being a primate he is also highly curious. This makes him the most likely to PAY MONEY for porn. Never forget that most porn is a business. Not until women pay equal monies will there be equal porn. :roll:

This dichotomy has a lot of repercussions and drives a lot of our complaints on both sides.

Now I ENJOY blowing a man I love - I enjoy his extreme reaction almost as much as my own. I can get off on it. Doing a good, thorough, detailed job makes him very nearly explode - as Till says "a thousand elephants breaking out". It's one of the Marvels of Nature and a privilege to witness. And yes, one gags... I always explain the need to breathe before starting, because he's gonna forget EVERYTHING at some point. (There are ways to avoid choking or I'd be long dead. :rolling: ) Reducing a fellow human being to jelly through sheer pleasure is a wonderful thing! Doing it for someone you LOVE.... OMG

Image

If your man believes in fair share, then hang on... :wink:

Men are also different in their romanticism. Men are more likely to become actively obsessed - and perhaps dangerous. Most of our tropes about romance are originally male-generated, as is most literature. I am quite unromantic - with experience who still needs it? LOL I sometimes shock with a "let's get it ON" attitude and my favorite part of a relationship is lying together afterward in that sort of dazed, joyous laziness after sex itself. I could float along forever on that Ferryride to Heaven... and I find men feel similarly if they have no other cares... The reason I have so many children is just that, and that I like my man to remain inside as long as possible. This keeps his donation to the process on site and if you have trouble conceiving - try it. If you use condoms DON'T! They leave "certain things" behind when they collapse... :lol:

Image: screen shot from Mein Teil video

========================================================================================

Re: the radio interview

The thing that bugged me was that she just would not move on, but kept coming back to it. If it had been more "on topic" for R+ and/or "Pussy" then fine - it's her show. But to invite Paul and Flake there on a pretext to discuss their new album and then try to make it about "women's issues" instead is misleading them and mousetrapping them. Impolite and a bit unfair. :brr:

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:01 am 
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^ It was at least an hour long show and she asked a lot of other questions too? I mean, obviously it was something important to her and she clearly did have respect for Rammstein and their music - she knew an awful lot about them, their past music, their live shows, etc. - I imagine that was partly why she was interested to find out their thoughts about it because it was something that had made her uncomfortable... Perhaps it is best to leave personal feelings out of a professional interview but then again I always like to hear what the guys think about issues, especially issues that are important to me...

Honestly, I think she probably came back to it because they refused to give her a straight answer and tried to avoid the question. If they didn't want to discuss it they could have said "we don't want to talk about that" rather than dodging it.

I'm a little confused by some of the rest of what you said up there. You say the average male has a much higher sex drive than the average female - may well be true - then you go on to describe your own sex life which seems to directly contradict that assertion given that you're a woman... do you believe your sex drive/sexual desires are very different from the average woman's? I don't mean that in a rude way, btw, I am just wondering.


@Stahlgeist - you make some very good points, especially about rape culture in Japan. There are even video games in Japan where the object is for the player to rape women... Of course it is very difficult to know what comes first in these sorts of situations, but one does have to wonder what having that sort of thing shown as entertainment does to people :|

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:26 pm 
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^ I get what you're saying about the sex drives, C. Yea, it may be true that guys have a bigger sex drive than women, but think about this; women also have testosterone. We may not have a lot like men, but we have testosterone. Testosterone is what kick starts our sex drive. I personally believe that it doesn't matter (man or woman), ANYONE can have a big sex drive. I hope that clears out some confusion and if I confused anyone, sorry :blush: .

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:46 pm 
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@ Cornflake

Yes, I (and many of the women in my maternal line) have above average testosterone. It leads, in our cases, either to a high sex drive, a deep sympathy for males, and a large family - or to lesbianism due to increased masculine tendencies. (Of course many of those things are not mutually exclusive... I have a relative that is following in her father's footsteps. She enjoys the company of men but married a woman and wants husband-hood...)

Also, in my case, I am WELL past the age of worrying about getting pregnant. So if I hop into bed happily, part of it is just sheer lack of fear. (Ok, we all should worry about STDs...) This is a well-known effect of menopause - either that or a loss of interest.

My higher testosterone (and now-lower estrogen) also makes me combative, a risk-taker more than I was when "productive", less nurturing when not pregnant, and more "in sync" with most males than most females. Keep in mind that my choice of career was auto mechanic and that I was the sole "pit crew" for a hobby race car. When I was in the SCA, my role was as a Constable (Security) - marching, learning the drill to use a pike (long spear) in warfare and I made the rank of Sergeant, which was a much higher rank in the 1400s. I escorted drunk bikers out of our camp when our tavern closed and they didn't understand. (By myself, in the dark, with a sword and a dagger.) I and a BF once went after a bear armed with a BB gun and a piece of firewood. (We came to our senses...) :roll: None of this is particularly "feminine" behavior. :rolling: I've mostly been "one of the guys" to the point a transgender pal once asked me why I didn't follow this path. I said "Well I don't like a lot of women - so I'd be spending a lot of money to become - gay?" (I liked him - he, gay, of course was not interested in me - but maybe I'm wrong and he wanted us to become the Truly Odd Couple?) :wink:

As to my remarks about sexual practices; It's a lot like setting off fireworks. Maybe you don't explode, but witnessing the explosion is amazing. :fire:

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 Post subject: Re: Porn, sex, sexism, the Pussy video and Rammstein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Wow, we have a man joining our little discussion here. Nice! :)

Yes, Japan can be quite scary sometimes. The weird thing about a lot of their anime porn is that the women tend to scream a lot and sometimes scream "NO! STOP! DON'T DO SUCH THINGS!" even when they are in deep pleasure and obviously enjoy the act. It's some fetish I can't really understand and which might lead to something worse in the case of people who confuse fiction and reality. But what CAN'T go wrong with such people? There's a lot of sexual violence too. And a lot of kinky stuff. Also, a lot of pedophilia. And some things like the guro which I can't even begin to comprehend. They get away with most of this because it's not live action, but still I've had some nasty surprises browsing through this stuff.

Yet, I think that the problem in their public transportation arise more from the fact that they have TOO MANY people there in this confined little spaces. And their women seem more submissive than us and allow this behaviour. I've had numerous encounters with molesters and gropers in our trams and buses in Sofia even though the average Bulgarian male has never heard of the Japanese subway groping fetish, anime porn or Japanese ero-games. The process is facilitated by the high population density in the bus. Sometimes it's so high that I start to doubt the laws of physics and avoiding penetration becomes really tricky. Each year I knew that spring was coming by the increased number of molesters who were squeezing or humping my ass. :lol: They get VERY active in the beginning of spring - it's something that can be seen in many mentally ill people. It's funny now, but when it happened the first two times I was 12-13 years old and I really freaked out. Then I learned to twist fingers, kick shins, knee nuts, stomp feet or just look them in the eyes and tell them with a loud voice, so that the whole bus can hear, that I'll smash their noses or gut them out. It works beautifully! :lol:

As for the anal sex - well, of course, it should be seen somewhere so that the less imaginative people can learn of it. :lol:
I'm kinda glad my husband gets some ideas from the porn he watches, as I do. We've had some fun. :) So in this case I think it was quite beneficial for our relationship.

@Cornflake, that's how I remember this part of the interview. They started talking about Pussy and she gave them a brief authoritative explanation about how unpleasantly women are portrayed in porn. Then she even QUOTED some "scientific study" about the negative effect of porn on human relationships. Paul tried to counter with a quote of another study according to which the number of rape incidents decreased since porn became more mainstream and accessible. She continued to press on the matter until Paul started to get defensive and awkwardly stated that he doesn't use porn, so that he does not look like a loser on the radio. At the end she said: "See, you agree with me at the end!". :lol:
This whole time I was like "Where the :x: is she going with that?"
Now, if she knew a lot about the band, if she really followed their history and cared for what they did, I would expect to hear questions that might actually reveal some interesting information about the thought process behind their new songs/videos. Something within the lines of: "RAMMSTEIN, Y U DECIDED TO FILM A SECOND VID WITH NEKKID PEOPLEZ IN IT???" Or "Guys, I know that Pussy, as a video is easily identifiable as offensive, what with sex being blatantly thrown in our faces and everything, but let's talk about the potential repercussions of some of the more sexually f****ed up things you've made in this album, like Ich tu der weh for example." Stuff like that. There was no real intention for constructive dialogue there, hence my disappointment with her.

@Moreach, I grew up with boys and maybe that's why I've always been quite tomboyish. I have always had a better relationship with my male friends - I have more fun with them too. I've never been really interested in what most women find interesting. And my best female friend is even more tomboyish than me. :lol: Maybe it's hormones - I won't be surprised. Or we just overdosed with the metal music when we were in our teens. :)

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