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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:39 am 
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I am still horrified by this atrocity days later. It makes my heart hurt that someone can be this cruel and be allowed to snap. My heart goes out to all the people affected, even those in other parts of the country. It's just another reminder of how fragile we are, and how violent our world remains.

I have many rather long-winded opinions on the issue (originating from two mostly gun free nations), but I do agree that mental care is absolutely one of the most vital things in preventing any sort of mass destruction. Many of these people have been planning this or contemplating it for such a long, long time, that it would be hard for a trained therapist to not notice these inclinations.

The true value of gun control laws with regards to cases like these, in my opinion, is that it can create a much more effective flagging system. When things are heavily regulated or outright banned, you can very clearly spot a pattern that says "something isn't right" when it reaches civilians. Modern monitoring and registries can only further streamline this. In the absence of better mental care, and the presence of unpredictable psychosis, it could very well be a good early warning system.

Any way you slice it, these things unfortunately happen. There may be ways to reduce the damage and frequency, or there may not, but one thing is for certain: it is a tragedy every time it takes place.


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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:15 am 
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@ Tillhammer

That kind of makes it seem as if all owners of firearms intend to shoot a human. The shooting of humans outside of war is not all that common. I certainly don't intend to shoot anyone. (We have bears and cougars here - I don't mean the human kinds.) The shock of violence makes it seem far more common than it is.

Consumer Reports (a "liberal" publication by some measures) reports this month that their investigation leads them to believe that most in the USA who die wrongfully will die due to a mistake in a hospital! "One Third of unnecessary deaths".... citing dirty catheters, dirty needles, dirty hands, dirty gloves, misplaced labels, wrong tests, wrong X-rays, wrong wrist tags.

The latest friend of mine to die died because he got a hip replacement - one like from the old joke "the operation was successful but the patient died". Never came home. Went straight into nursing because of a massive infection. Lived three months in agony, awake and aware his life was slipping away... :evil:

Odds are, nobody's going to shoot you in a theater, but be careful in a hospital.

If guns were the only way to kill, then they should go. But they aren't. Not even close.
Lack of caring and hate is what kills.
I suspect the man in this case will turn out to have realized his thinking was "odd" which is why he tried to go into neurology. In hopes he could fix himself and his mom would never have to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:29 am 
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^ I'm sorry, but it is simply a fact that a gun makes it much easier for a mentally ill person to take a life. The majority of doctors - unlike what you suggest - do not go into their field because they are "mad". Meanwhile, people who perform mass shootings do have mental illnesses. The fact that they have access to weapons that makes it easy to kill people troubles me. Of course, you can kill people with anything, but a gun makes it incredibly easy to do this without getting close to your victim and/or without necessarily harming yourself. Another kind of weapon - a knife, for example - is totally different and much more 'personal' than a gun. Even in, say, a car accident - I have never heard of a massacre using a car, btw, in any country - the perpetrator is far more likely to be injured than a gunman is.

Again, I am not suggesting that the majority of gun owners are the kind to go out and massacre a group of innocent people. I am not suggesting that you, a law-abiding citizen, should not have the right to own your guns. I just do not believe that guns should be anything like so easily accessible to the average person.

I am not naive enough to think that mental illness, or gang violence, or other kinds of things that create a demand for firearms, do not exist in other countries. But, as a citizen of a country with some of the strictest gun control laws in the world (the UK), I have never felt unsafe because I don't own a gun. And I live in London, a big city with plenty of gangs, violence, etc. I walk through 'unsafe' parts of London regularly. I have never felt threatened. And I have no desire and/or need to own a gun.

Perhaps the reason so many criminals have guns is because guns are legal and easy to get hold of?

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:42 pm 
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^ Guns are really not that easy to get hold of legally. You have to pass a background check (and have NO criminal record), a Basic Firearms Safety Certification (there's an additional one if you want to purchase a handgun) and then there's a waiting period between when you buy the gun and when you can take it home. And if you're caught with a gun that you own legally but it's improperly stored, has certain aftermarket modifications, etc. you can go to jail for anywhere from 6 months to 5 years. Not to mention your gun is confiscated and you won't be able to buy another because you now have a criminal record. I know some states are a bit more lax on improper storage/aftermarket modifications than California, but all states require at least the background check and BFSC.

If you're a criminal, you either have to steal a gun from a legal gun owner or buy one on the black market that has come into this country illegally through Mexico. That's why gun control doesn't work on criminals, because they don't obtain them through the legal channels and there are literally millions of illegal guns in this country available to someone with the right connections.


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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:50 pm 
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^ I read in the Canadian edition of the Metro today that he had had 50 packets delivered to his door in the last month or so. How on earth did this not set off alarms? I think neighbourhood building has a lot to do with this - people who pay attention to one another. I would be at the very least curious to see what someone would be doing with so many larger packets being delivered day after day. As it is, people just turn their heads (justifiably, considering what could be lurking in those packets), but a lack of community and trust of law enforcement is, in my opinion, society's greatest contribution to creating these scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:42 pm 
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I await the day guns disappear all together. Right to bear arms my A :x: .

I read on Yahoo today that the suspect was dazed and totally out of it in the courtroom. And his hair is colored red-orange. Almost as if he didn't care..... :x

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:57 pm 
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^ yeah, it's being reported all over. Prosecution couldn't say if he was on meds, or just extremely sleep deprived. He was nearly catatonic. It'll be interesting to have this guy's pathology unfurled. I wonder if he was off some medication he should have been taking...

Edit: I also remember hearing that he told cops he's "The Joker", at which point this story took a decidedly even more bizarre turn, but I'm going to disregard this until it's a confirmed statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:05 am 
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Yes the Looney did say he was the Joker :twisted: which appears to be why he dyed his hair both orange and pink!

He also appeared to be "out of it". :um: Given he will probably settle on an insanity defense he may be either using his neuroscience research to "act crazy" or his mom (a member of the profession) has brought him something - - - OR he's been so disruptive in custody the police had to trank him. :sped: Ordinarily this sort of action is avoided so I can only guess.

Of course he IS crazy... but possibly not legally, since he was able to carry off several detailed plots.

Two "tells" here: If you take that first grinning foto in the press and lay a mirror down the center of his face, the left and right sides do not have the same expression. The right side is overly happy and the left side almost emotionless. This a sign of internal disconnect... Plus not only do his friends say he was "quiet", they say he was "always cheerful". Nobody with that much intellect is "always" cheerful! Life is just too complex and strange!

So he's been lying either to the people around him - or to himself, for years... :?

Good luck recovering victims. Bless you heroic ones! :angel:

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:31 am 
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@ Moreach: I find the suggestion that his mother might have "brought him something" is just *too* speculative. I'm not denying that items/substances *do* get smuggled into prisons and jails in various ways (not always carried in by a person) - this happens - but there are various standard security measures and procedures used in regular practice to prevent the smuggling of contraband into these institutions. With such a high profile case as this one, you can be sure that extra precautions are also taken - all staff are fully aware of the media spotlight on this prisoner. I'm not sure if he was even allowed any visitors at this point yet, as I have only skimmed recent media articles. Was it stated in the news or in an article that he was given this priviledge? Even if he was, to suggest that his mother (who must understandably be going through a hell of her own, as would the rest of his family) would commit a criminal act is unfair and distasteful.


As numerous media outlets are following these event and presenting analyses, etc., it probably would be helpful to post an occasional article/video link here. Not all media are the same in their presentation (to say the least!), so reading/seeing some non-local sources can only enhance the information we already know.

For example, many here have been talking about gun control laws. Here's a fresh article regarding how gun control is actually losing support in the U.S. in the wake of this recent massacre: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 ... polls.html
There are also links provided to related articles and polls that some members might find interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:25 am 
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^I just read that and Jason Alexander's words on the situation made a hell of a lot of sense to me -

"These weapons are military weapons. They belong in accountable hands, controlled hands and trained hands. They should not be in the hands of private citizens to be used against police, neighborhood intruders or people who don't agree with you. These are the weapons that maniacs acquire to wreak murder and mayhem on innocents. They are not the same as handguns to help homeowners protect themselves from intruders. They are not the same as hunting rifles or sporting rifles. These weapons are designed for harm and death on big scales."

Exactly, Jason. Exactly! *Applauds* :)

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:40 am 
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@ BK

Good point -

I was just reporting the conversation around the house - which originally was that his lawyers did it. But they do keep a very close eye on visitors - they'd be mad not to!

He's probably too "detached" to get anything by the "usual" prison grapevine system. They probably have him isolated. Lots of "perps" like action movies... I don't think he'd be very popular in there... :x

So, we were speculating how he got to be so drugged-looking. Not very many avenues for it to happen so his defense and family are high on any list. Of course it's still unlikely. And he could be legally medicated.
(But for arraignment? He's supposed to be lucid for that.)

I personally think he's acting, and doing a poor job. I've seen both my old pals in full-blown crises, and they didn't act like that. Not even the one who drools. (Some day I should tell how I got to be "Best Man" at his wedding and Ed was the bride's attendant. You have not lived... in fear... until you've taken a drunken sociopath on his bachelor's night out...) :(

The police are theorizing the Colorado killer got the chemicals for the bombs in his apartment by using his college ID as a researcher. Evidently in Colorado they monitor fertilizer carefully, but not real bomb chemicals - or bullets... :|

@ nola

Exactly. Up until the 70s (I think - might be 60s) this kind of weapon was not for the general public. Still shouldn't be. No argument there! :|

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:24 am 
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There are just so many unanswered questions about this whole situation, really. First and foremost, how did this guy manage to accumulate not only the guns and the magazines for them, but also the equipment he used to build the explosives, in what was apparently a short period of time, without anybody noticing something might be wrong?

It sounds kind of horrible to say, but the trial might actually be able to give us useful insights into the mind of this kind of killer. The majority of mass murderers either commit suicide or are killed by law enforcement. This guy is still alive, so he can be questioned. Maybe we actually have a chance of finding out what went wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:07 pm 
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I don't know the gun laws in other countries except for my own and Japan. Citizens of Japan are not even allowed to own a handgun unless they undergo SERIOUS regulations:

"Japan prohibits handgun possession by citizens. Shotguns and rifles for hunting or sports may be possessed upon completion of a licensing procedure that requires a police background check, successful completion of a safety course, passing of shooting, written, and psychological tests, and police verification of secure storage, prior to approval being granted by the police to purchase a firearm. Fully automatic weapons are restricted to military and police. Gun owners must take a class once a year and pass a written test. Police check on the owner once every three months on an unannounced visit. They inspect the gun locker, proper ammunition storage, and the firearm."

Gun crimes are also non existent there as well, last time I checked it was 47 firearm related deaths a year. As opposed to the 10,000+ a year in the USA.

I don't think gun laws are going to make a difference at all if someone REALLY wants to kill someone else. People are strange creatures that will do anything to get what they want, even if what they want is the death of another person. I avoid comparing humans to animals because more animals seem to be capable of showing compassion than most humans.

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:05 am 
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Gun crimes are also non existent there as well, last time I checked it was 47 firearm related deaths a year. As opposed to the 10,000+ a year in the USA.


While I don't doubt the Japan is doing far better on guns, it is a very much SMALLER country. I'd like a comparative statistic instead. An X% versus Y% data set...

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 Post subject: Re: Colorado Shooting
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:50 pm 
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^ Shouldn't be too hard to Google comparisons. Maybe you'd like to find some and put them up?

In the aftermath of this deadly shooting - gun sales in the U.S. have JUMPED: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 ... orado.html

Some people are apparently concerned that gun control legislation will be brought in. :um:

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